Feedback on new Apple Logic Suite?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 18 Sep 2007 1:14 pm

Any experienced Logic users have any initial input on the new Logic 8?

Isn't this price a fraction of what it used to cost? Seems like $2K was the price, or something ridiculous like thata.

Will this yield better sound than ProTools LE?

What's the best simple (2-4 inputs) DAW interface to couple with Logic, and is Firewire better than USB?

That oughtta do it!

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 18 Sep 2007 4:05 pm

John;

the new Apogee Duet looks really sweet:

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/duet.php

...that and Logic 8 might even be enough to make a guy switch from Pro Tools

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 18 Sep 2007 5:43 pm

I owned the $1000 Logic Pro 7 for a while. The price slash to $500 is just amazing. The new Logic 8 Studio suite is truly great. I've been messing with it for about 5 days. They made Logic very much easier to use, and it's simply loaded with gobs and gobs of sound samples, loops, virtual instruments, and plug-ins.

Audio-wise there are always debates over what DAW sounds better. I don't have an opinion on that yet, but I do believe that Logic sounds real good. I'm hoping to find time to dial in an identical mix of a song in Digital Performer, ProTools, and Logic 8 so I can compare the sonics of each. The real issue with any of these programs is how the mix bus sounds. That's where the multi tracks are summed (mixed) down to stereo. The math is critical there, and that's where a lot of systems take on their sonic signature. So when I get around to it, I'll be happy offer my opinions on the sound quality.

Now here's something I STRONGLY advise. Take a real close look at the Logic 8 Express. It's only $199, and has many of Logic Pro's features that most of us would use. Logic Express 8 plus a cheap interface, and for well under $500, someone could be up and flying with more power than they'd know what to do with.

When it comes to audio recording and mixing, you can do everything in Logic that you could do in ProTools or Digital Performer or others. Logic will also work with pretty much any interface you could buy. There are many decent USB interfaces for well under $200.

I'm actually a die-hard, long-term Digital Performer fan and user. But also being a huge Apple fanatic, I'm very supportive of what Apple is doing with Emagic's Logic. It's very impressive. The full blown $499 Logic Studio package is really worth it. It's got Waveburner, and I'd pay $500 for that piece alone. So I'm feeling a bit enthusiastic this week about my new Logic Studio software.

Brad

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 18 Sep 2007 7:50 pm

Greg, thanks for linking to the Duet, that's a pretty sleek gizmo, very Apple-like in clean, simple appearance. Any idea how superb the preamps in it are?

Brad, thanks for your input, I'll definitely consider Logic Express, I'm sure the Studio has more bells and whistles than I'll ever need. WaveBurner is for mastering CD's, right? I probably won't miss that for a long while, if ever.

Sounds like for adding steel/dobro tracks to client's files, this is a superb way to go.

More input, people!

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 18 Sep 2007 9:21 pm

John, I second the recommendation for Logic Express. It has all the features most people would ever need in an audio / midi workstation for an unbeatable price. The pro version has a few nice things that would appeal to an audio professional, like some spiffier EQ's, convolution reverb, multiband compressor, and a number of other things, but all the essentials are all there in Logic Express. I think Express 8 now even includes the full version of the EXS24 sampler, not just the sample player from Logic Express 7.

IMO, most of the other applications in the Logic 8 Studio package are of limited value for the average person doing basic home audio and midi (Except for WaveBurner, which will be appreciated by anybody who's creating any kind of audio CD projects).

If you're doing tracks for clients from files that they send you, Logic is great, because it doesn't care what file format they are. WAV, AIFF, SDII, doesn't matter, you can just drop them right into the project. You can tell Logic to write any file type too.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 19 Sep 2007 7:51 am

Great info, Jerry!

Is there a logical comeback to a producer friend of mine who thinks I should go with ProTools (LE is fine for my needs, he says), because it's such an industry standard, and it simply "works"? Another producer friend believes Logic's final sound is better than in ProTools, guess it does the math better.

I'd like my overdubs to be sonically amazing, not just OK. But hopefully not using a system that's too high-end or complicated. Perhaps I'm dreaming...

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 19 Sep 2007 8:07 am

Feedback on the Logic Pro Suite has been generally very positive on the Big Blue Lounge.

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 19 Sep 2007 8:16 am

Thanks for the link to that forum Brad:)

There's another good Logic 8 discussion over on The Gear Page: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=290680

I think the only problem now is my 1GHz G4 Macs (iMac & PowerBook) look to be not quite up to snuff for optimal performance with Logic 8

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Sep 2007 1:57 am

I've used Logic since its inception (Originally as E-Magic Notator/Creator) and Macs since theirs, there is no better marriage. IMHO

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 28 Sep 2007 2:24 pm

Anyone care to recommend a nice little FireWire input device to pair up with Logic Suite or Express? Just a pair of inputs, maybe 4, but not a dozen. Other than the nice little Apogee Duet pointed out by Greg Simmons. Thanks!

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 28 Sep 2007 7:07 pm

John, if you're looking for just a few inputs like that, you should definitely also consider USB devices and not just Firewire. USB 2 carries plenty of bandwidth for 4+ channels of audio. Tons of choices. Prices for decent units starting around $150.

With the good stuff like Apogee, you are getting pro quality low-jitter performance, better converters, and generally better sound. But many of the cheap interfaces these days aren't too shabby sounding.

Brad

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 29 Sep 2007 1:31 pm

Thanks, Brad!

Terry Gann · Post by **Terry Gann** » 1 Oct 2007 10:30 am

For a few bucks more you might enjoy the Presonus Firepod.
I got mine for $400 thru Sam Ash plus they had a rebate for a Presonus headphone amp and extra software. It's Firewire / 8x8 / spdf / midi.
I'm really happy with the sound. I hate to say "for the money" cause you can surely spend more and not hear any difference.
Yes, mostly I just use one or two inputs at a time but all those outputs are great when I mix down. Sometimes I go old-school and do it by hand thru my mixer. The extra inputs will come in handy, some day. What if you wanted a drummer to come over and lay down real drums?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 31 Oct 2007 10:31 pm

Bump for any more thoughts, feedback...

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 1 Nov 2007 12:17 am

I haven't yet made the switch to Logic 8 (I probably will when I upgrade to Leopard), but one thing that I recently discovered in Logic 7 pro that I really like is the guitar amp modeler, Guitar Amp Pro. I found it hidden amongst the "distortion" plug-ins.

It's presets are few, but each one is so tweakable, that I was able to get a nicer steel sound from it than any other amp modeler I have. I can just go straight out of my Hilton pedal to the audio interface, and shape the sound with the amp modeler. I can take the second output from the Hilton to an amp for monitoring while recording.

It might not suit everyone, but it works for me.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 Nov 2007 9:21 am

Logic Update:

Well after a few more weeks trying to get used to the new Logic 8, I've got some more thoughts on it. I recently did a live recording of a nearly 4 hour poetry and music event. 7 tracks, all kinds of level variances and different voices. So basically it's a simple mix, but with lots of automation in levels and plug-in values. With a nearly 4 hour long session, things like navigation, quickly jumping around and tweaking levels all over the place, you can really get a feel for a program's workflow, ease, and efficiency.

I set up this session in Digital Performer 5, ProTools LE7, and Logic 8. DP5 and ProTools struggled when the whole thing was all put together. Some editing functions got sloppy and unpredictable. PT started to get kind of slow. DP was ok, but sometimes glitchy. Logic, however, was a breeze. Its automation tools are extremely smart, almost psychic feeling. Generally when it was all said and done, Logic 8 felt better then the others. Good look, feel, ergonomics, tool functionality, navigation, etc. ProTools is good, as it should be, but still didn't feel as "fun" to work in. DP is very familiar to me, so that was on par with ProTools in this situation. But I must say that Apple has really done something here with Logic 8. I'm very impressed.

Actually, as I type, Logic is downstairs bouncing the session to stereo. DP and PT both puked as they attempted to bounce the whole long session. I'll see if Logic can handle bouncing the whole thing at once.

This shootout is kind of unfair I'll admit, because it's pretty rare to have a nearly 4 hour session. Most of the time a project is simply a single song. But this test really did let me get in to real work in all three programs. We have an album project coming up, and I wanted to really feel out all three side by side to help me decide which route I'll go. It's looking like Logic 8 wins for me at the moment.

Brad

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 6 Nov 2007 12:19 pm

It seems unbelievable to get all this power and functionality for $200.

Brad, your descriptions are valuable info for everybody. A few questions from one who is totally ignorant when it comes to recording..but very interested and hungry to learn...
- Is Logic 8 in essence a full fledged "recording studio"? It sure sounds like it.

-Is it multitrack i.e. is it like a 16-track or 32 track?
-Would it be a tough learning curve for a newbie like me?
- Is it user friendly and simple enough for me to reap some benefits early on?
Thanks so much
Bent

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 Nov 2007 12:28 pm

Bent,

Logic used to be hard, but now with version 8, Apple has made it far, far more intuitive and easy. Any workstation software will take some reading and practice and patience. Logic Express 8 would be probably as easy as most others. It is a very complete recording studio. I don't know the track limit, but it's probably based on how powerful your computer is. I'd say most people with a relatively recent machine should be comfortably doing 16 to 24 tracks. It's when you start adding things like reverbs and compressors that the computer starts to bog down. But for simple recording, editing, and mixing, you can pretty much go wild with it.

For $200, Logic Express 8 is an incredible deal. For $500, the full Logic Studio package is still an incredible steal.

Brad

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 6 Nov 2007 8:23 pm

Thanks for your great explanations, Brad.
What a great forum this is! Always full of people who are willing to give so much of themselves.

Bent

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 9 Nov 2007 7:10 am

I recently recorded at a studio that just installed the Logic 8. Yes it only cost $500, but you have to have the Mac Pro (about $5K) to run it efficiently.

The sound is better than Pro Tools....what isn't?!?!

It is about time that there is a good sounding and multi featured alternative to ProTools which many engineers hate the sound of, but are forced to use because it has become the default setting in so many home and pro studios.

One thing that I did not like with the Logic 8 is the latency in the direct recording. If you don't set the correct buffer amounts, there is a noticable delay in what you play on your instrument and what you hear from the monitor speakers. That bugged me and I hope it can be corrected.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Nov 2007 8:14 am

If YOU are experiencing latency then the engineer is at fault for not feeding you a direct signal.
There is absolutely NO need to monitor THROUGH the AD-DA-converters of whatever system Logic is connected to.

As well as that, any latency is NOT caused by logic but the hardware's limitations..

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 9 Nov 2007 8:31 am

I took the plunge about two weeks ago with a Mac Book Pro (small apartment and would like to be able to travel to record live events now and then), Apogee Ensemble and Glyph drive to store it all on. The results have been pretty astounding, I had never run a DAW (but did run an analog studio for a few years) and within a few days I was doing 8 track transfers, creating new songs, running the automation, bouncing, grabbing tracks from FTP sites to do overdubs.

The first day or two just about drove me nuts (staying up until 5 AM trying to set a record path) but now it's really fun. The Apogee AD converters are beautiful sounding, very musical and warm. And with the Ensemble you get 8, just two with the Duet.

Logic 8 is a mindbendingly sophisticated app, it comes on about 5 discs, and more loops and plug ins than this steel player will need anytime soon, but it will definitely come in handy when I start scoring some music for indie films.

I am going to post some new clips on my Myspace page soon, so you all can hear some results if you are interested. I highly recommend the Logic software, once you learn all the commands and can "think" in Logic, it's very fast and efficient to use.

Best regards to all,

Gerald

1969 Emmons D-10
Nashville 400
SteelSeat

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 9 Nov 2007 8:55 am

Does it work OK on my G4?
does it communicate well with a digi 001?

JJ

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Nov 2007 12:33 pm

Johan, MOST G4's aren't fast enough..Unfortunately for a lot of us..

Apple Logic Studio 8 Upgrade From Logic Express Specifications:

* Minimum requirements to install all applications
* Mac computer with a 1.25GHz or faster PowerPC G4 processor (PowerPC G5, Intel Core Duo, or Intel Xeon processor highly recommended)
* 1GB of RAM (2GB or more highly recommended)
* Display with 1024 x 768 resolution (1280 x 800 or higher recommended)
* Mac OS X v10.4.9 or later
* QuickTime 7.2 or later
* DVD drive for installation
* PCI Express, ExpressCard/34, USB, or FireWire based audio interface recommended

Surround requirements for Logic Pro and Soundtrack Pro
* Mac computer with dual PowerPC G5 processors or an Intel Core Duo or Xeon processor
* Multichannel audio interface

Available disk space requirements
* 7GB to install all applications and required content
* Additional 39GB to install all optional content (large content packages can be installed on separate disk):
* 10GB for Jam Pack collections
* 16GB for sound effects
* 6GB for surround music beds
* 7GB for other optional content

Apple Logic Studio 8 Upgrade From Logic Express Features:

* Includes:
* Logic Pro 8
* MainStage
* Soundtrack Pro 2
* Studio Instruments
* Studio Effects
* Studio Sound Library

Logic Pro 8 Compatibility
* GarageBand and Logic Express, Reason, Live, Pro Tools, Final Cut Pro, and more
* Support for Apple Core Audio and Digidesign DAE hardware
* TDM and Audio Units allows for plenty of plug-ins
* AAF, OMF, and XML support

Soundtrack Pro 2 Compatibility
* OMF, AAF import/export, XML
* Final Cut Pro

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 9 Nov 2007 2:45 pm

I'd like to dispel a few myths. Some were covered already so forgive me if I'm repeating something here.

Regarding the Mac required to run it, you can run the hell out of Logic 8 on a $700 Mac mini, just blazing and powerful. I run it on both my $1100 Macbook (not the Pro model) as well as my dual 1G Mac G4, a relatively old computer. It does great. I'm sure the G4 would begin to bog down if I tried to use lots of complex instruments and CPU-heavy plug-ins, but for basic music stuff like EQ, compression, and a dozen or two tracks, it seems wonderfully fast and smooth. NO NEED AT ALL for an expensive Mac to run Logic 8. The way I see it, one could buy an $1100 MacBook, Logic Express for $200, and a MOTU 8Pre. Right there is an amazingly powerful and functional DAW for just over $2k. A complete system. For $300 more you can get the whole Logic Suite including Waveburner. There you have an entire setup that will take you from tracking to spitting out a pro-quality master disk. Never before has so much power been available to us.

Regarding latency, well that seems like operator error. We are now in the age of "latency-free hardware monitoring". If you do what Bill described by monitoring live thru a record enabled track, sure you'll experience latency and you need to shrink the buffer size to minimize it, but then you limit the power of the operation. But that's NOT the way to do it anymore. Most any modern and decent audio interface will have a hardware monitoring option where the hardware interface itself will provide latency-free monitoring for live tracking. You DON'T monitor thru the software track, but instead right inside the hardware interface. Sure you can do it that old way, but that's not very fun and it has huge limitations. Hardware monitoring has no latency issues.

I recently recommended this setup to a friend:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/8pre/
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LogicExp8/
http://www.apple.com/macbook/macbook.html

Total price about $1850. But I do recommend paying the extra $250 for the 3-year Apple Protection Plan as well as an external hard drive, firewire or USB2, and some extra RAM for the Mac which brings the total to about $2350.

Brad