Why don't we demand*******************

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Aug 2002 8:06 am

I have noticed over the years and on these posts that there is a lot of great amps out there , except that they are back breakers.

Why don't we get the attention of Peavey or other great amp builders and demand the same power and tone that they now have, BUT with a Leaner and Meaner Lighter weight!

If we can go to the moon , they can build us a lighter weight amp. They are using pressboard , that is a lot heavier than other materials available and their speakers are too heavy, they can come out with lighter magnets, that still give the tones we are used to.

And don't tell me they would cost too much, I know better. I suppose it would cost a little more.

Mike Brown and Peavey have been great for us steel guitar players. We have got more support from them than any other amp mfgr.

Now how about, you Mike, to get some heads together and cut that weight on those amps?
If MSA , with the new Millenium Steel Guitar,can pioneer into the 21st Century, why can't you?

Steel guitar companies like Carter, GFI, Excel, Williams are giving us good LIGHTWEIGHT steel guitars , with great tone and playability ,and now it is the Amplifier Manufactoring Companies turn.Give me a Nashville 1000 that weighs 30 to 35 Lbs and I will buy it.....enough said...al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 08 August 2002 at 11:01 AM.]

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 8 Aug 2002 8:28 am

But when MSA took us into the new millenium, the price almost doubled. The same would probably apply to a new amp design, to pay for engineering, research, and development. We are still not a very large market.

------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 8 Aug 2002 9:33 am

Danny McKinney from Standel was over here last night testing an amp and we were talking about why they are so expensive. He has over $1200 in parts, before they have to be assembled. A lot of the weight is in the transformer and the magnet. Evidently the patent on neodymium (which is a lot lighter than alnico) magnets is up and he's working with a company to use this for the magnets for speakers. Lighter,but I suspect, not cheaper.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Aug 2002 10:15 am

Yes, Charles I heard about the new Neodymium speaker.

Darvin, Yes, is suppose they will add some cost, but they don't have to re-engineer the amp as much as the cabinet, just find ways to cut the weight.

As for MSA, this is a brand new Guitar just engineered. Peavey's 400 and 1000 have been done for a while now. If you will check on the list price on Emmons and Mullen that I know of, the picker prices are a lot lower than the list price. I am sure that MSA will do likewise, after they get into full production.

Peavey was going to use it on the 1000, then said it would cost more.

Probably the patent royalties, but if , as you say the Patent has expired, they could do it now.

That is one thing they could do without a lot of new engineering.

They could also without engineering, change those heavy OS board used for flooring on houses ,for something like Plywood or light metal. They could make the cabinets lighter but stronger. It has all been figured out on other items.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 8 Aug 2002 10:35 am

Among Mike Brown's informative and considered posts he detailed how the cabinet was modified for the 1000 series with, I believe, different cabinetry joints and type of wood used. The box does make alot of difference in an amp's resonance and I know our boys at Peavey are always working to improve on their excellent designs. I do think that their steel amps should be offered in head/cab combinations.

Chas,

How'd you like the Standel?

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 8 Aug 2002 12:37 pm

All the manufacturers have to do is take any standard [heavey one] amp and enclose the speaker in 1 cabinet and the amp in another and sell it as, for example, Peavey 1000SP,
as opposed to Peavey 1000. "SP" would designate 'split-up'. If the Peavey 1000 weighs
around 70lbs, then the 2 separate sections will weigh roughly 35lbs each.

I know this because that is exactly what I did with my Vegas 400. the cabinet for the amp was made out of 5/8 cabinet grade plywood
and simply finished with a combo of polyurethane layered with amber shellac.

The recessed deck-latch that is the amps handle is located offset of mid-point so as to compensate for the one-sided heavier weight of the power transformer. So when you lift it up it does not seesaw one way or the other.

Now, it's actually almost fun to carry this split amp around.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 Aug 2002 12:41 pm

Manufacuring two piece cabinets for amps sounds like a good sideline for some of the Forum members that already make seats and/or speaker cabinets. I bet they'd sell a bunch.

Of course you could bypass all that and just get a Stereo Steel system and be done with it.

Wayne Brown · Post by **Wayne Brown** » 8 Aug 2002 1:20 pm

if some one gives me a order for one i'll build a split cab for them... but ...i need to know where to get the tolex for a good price
thanks
wayne
c/o out west pac-seats

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 8 Aug 2002 1:33 pm

I wonder if Peavey has experimented with structural foam (I think thats the name of the stuff) for amp cabinets? Seems like they make some PA cabinets out of it, I know other manufacturers, like Mackie, do and those speakers are relatively light and sound great. Maybe it's not so good for an amp? I don't really mind the weight of a 1000 so much, its just so darn big. Of course big cabinets make big sound.

Keep up the good work, Peavey. They still make the only bargain in the amplifier world, IMHO. I'm still mourning the Session 2000.

------------------

Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Fender Cyber Twin

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Aug 2002 5:12 pm

Well, I recently bought and tested one of the new neodymium magnet speakers! First off...they are not cheap. The one I got was the Celestion G12 Century, and it set me back about almost $250! On the plus side, it really is a lightweight, weighing in at just over 3 lbs.. When I got the thing in the mail, I thought they sent me an empty box, but sure enough...there was a 12" speaker in there.

I installed it in my slightly modified Fender Stage 112SE, and was quite impressed with the sound. It has more of the old Alnico sound than any other speaker I've tried, but with a quicker response time, and the weight factor (the stock Fender speaker is just over 10 lbs.) sure helped the "portability" of the amp. It also takes up much less room in the cabinet, due to the reduced magnet size (about the size of a shufflebowl puck). It's rated at 75w RMS and 150w peak. I'm sure it probably won't handle what the Fender (or a BW) speaker would, but I just wanted to try it out and see what it sounded like.

It performs well...nice warm sound, but with the very fast response time. It looks kinda cheap, due to the thin stamped-steel basket. However, with the small (cooling?) fins that are on the back of the magnet, it has an almost "retro" look about it.

Now, I'm sure just about no one would buy one of these just to cut 7 lbs. off the weight of a single-speaker amp, but two of these little jewels in a Twin Reverb would lower the weight by 14 lbs.! This is significant. Still, I'm sure that only the "bucks up" pickers out there will be willing to fork out over $450 to save their backs a little, and have a great old-time clean, smooth sound.

The big drawback, of course, is the price, and I know that the magnet justifies a higher price...but double??? Hopefully, someone like Peavey, Bose or JBL will get on this bandwagon...and give them a little competetion!

Bose has been making an "inverted structure" speaker for some time. (This is one where the magnet is in front of the cone.) The combination of an inverted structure, a big voice coil, and a neodymium magnet, could give us a 15" musical instrument speaker less than 3" deep, and weighing only about 4 lbs.. This could finally give us truly compact and light weight "big-sound" amps.

Why doesn't someone just "do it"?

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 8 Aug 2002 5:20 pm

Michael, I loved it. This one had the tone circuit that Bob Crooks had just finished designing before he died so it has a lot of sentimental value for Danny, besides sounding great. The cabinet was made of 1/2" poplar which seems to give it a little more bottom and it had (4) 6550 power tubes, so it had more power than the last one (which was damaged in shipping, I got to hear it when it got back and it was really sad).

This one had a lot of tonal range including definition with the 'top' rolled off as well as having enough bite and a range of treble to play a country gig, and there was an adjustment that kept the sound back at the cabinet or projected it out in front ( same volume, I haven't the slightest idea of how it was able to do that) I think of my Evans with a 1501 as projecting the sound out. I know that talking about these things is an exercise subjective description and I'm trying to be articulate without using superlatives.

This is the 5th or 6th version I've help test and 3 of them were considerably better than anything I've got. They all have had JBL D-130 speakers (from the '50s), which to my ears has a disinctive sound and has not been my favorite, but in this configuration, it's lovely.

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 9 Aug 2002 6:57 am

I am in the process of having spit cabinets built for a Nashville 400.I know a guy who did a Vegas 400 and it worked great.On the Mirical audio web sight he has a drawing for splitting the Nashville 400.And at one time Cush Case offered spilt Steel cases,I have ordered a split case one for the body and one for everything else with my new guitar.
Every pound helps.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 10 Aug 2002 4:17 pm

Separate cabinets are a good idea if you do it right. I had that idea years ago and wished I hadn't done it. I messed up a fine Fender Vibrosonic amp (just cut it in two!) and ended up selling the amp for way less than its value so I could go the "solid state" route. Big mistake.

I think the idea of getting new cabs for the head and speaker for say a Peavey NV 400, Vegas, etc. should be great but don't mess up the original! You may want to sell it sometime and you'll wish it was intact.

I went with a rack rig a year or two ago and I'll never go back to a hernia poppin' amp again. In fact I sold my Peavey NV 1000 a few months ago. The rack rig features a Tube Works Real Tube II pre-amp, a very light weight GK MLS Micro amp for the pre-amp. The GK weighs about four pounds and I only use the power amp section. It's rated at 120 watts at 4 ohms. There are many choices these days for power amps so shop around. Also the mail order houses are selling them cheap these days. You can buy lots of power for around $300 or so. These two components are in a home-made rack box that has room for my FX pedals, the whole box is no more than 15 lbs. or so. The speaker is an EV 15 in a custom made cab, about the size of a NV 400 but very lightweight. You need some volume in the cab for proper tone. Gerry Walker has a unique design for his cabs that aren't much bigger than the BW 15s that go inside.

This is a great thread. I think amp design needs lots of improvement and hope manufacturers respond.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 10 Aug 2002 4:24 pm

Correction to the above. The GK MLS is the power amp, not pre-amp.

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 10 Aug 2002 6:27 pm

I am planning on leaving the speakers in the Nashville cabinet and just make a cover for the hole the amp left.Maybe aluminum angle hit with a DA sander,but nothing that alters the original to where it can't be put back like it was.[This message was edited by Scott Howard on 11 August 2002 at 04:11 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 11 Aug 2002 8:26 pm

Good idea Donny! Thanks for all the ideas on the speakers and cabinets. Maybe Peavey will get the idea and try a few things..eh...al

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 14 Aug 2002 4:51 pm

Back in the fifties and sixties I was using a Fender Dual Showman.I have used Bandmasters and Single showman amps.They all had a very good sound and you could crank them up pretty good.They were all separate ,Power head and speaker cabinet.I don't think any of the combinations weighed near as much as my Emmons LeGrande 600.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 16 Aug 2002 4:29 am

The split cabinets make sense to me. You can set the amp head at your side just like you would a Profex II. I thought years ago that Bose would be the one to come out with the small amps or at least a real small speaker cabinet. I played through some Bose speakers once and they weren't all that bad for low volume.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Aug 2002 5:52 am

One of the smartest things I've done was to have a carpenter buddy duplicate the top foot or so of my '78 Session 400. It is light, sounds great and I can use it with a separate single 15 cabinet or even use two single 15 cabs if I need to move a little more air.

My original Session4 cabinet is intact and would take 15 minutes to return to original condition. I strongly suggest going that route vs cutting down the original cabinet.

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 16 Aug 2002 7:18 am

Most bass players I know use a Gallien-Kruger, or would if they could.

A friend of mine has a 300 watt GK amp the size of an attache case that makes my much larger and heavier amp sound like a transistor radio. Somebody asked me why I was still using such a big amp and I had to answer, quite honestly "I can't afford a little one yet".

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 17 Aug 2002 4:01 pm

If you think that your amp is heavy..then how do you carry your steel?

I for one, would never compromise any quality feature of the instrument with the sole purpose of making it lighter....

If you can't carry it .....why are you playing it?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Aug 2002 6:17 pm

Tim...I think that's the point. They would play more if they didn't have to carry it.
Big stars don't carry anything! They have "roadies" for that mundane, uncomfortable task.

Dyke Corson · Post by **Dyke Corson** » 17 Aug 2002 6:40 pm

Hey Tim,

I break down my steel into two cases, very light 1/4" plywood w/ aluminum hardware. The body in one case is very light, legs, pedal rack & rods even lighter in the other. When the MCZ band got the bus, I went to two Walker cabs w/BWs, DPC750/Profex. If I had to lug around a big heavy steel case and my two Vegas 400s I would have to think twice about (some) pick up gigs!

Of course right now, I'm enjoying semi-retirement and a new son!

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 17 Aug 2002 8:52 pm

Al; I'm just curious as to why your 1000 should weigh 70lbs! I have (2) 1000s and the operating manual says they weigh 57.1lbs. (I still have 4 round-ball rubber wheels on each of them.) And you wrote about lighter steels, mentioning GFI. Well I have a GFI Ultra Keyless D-10 (9 &

that sits in the corner of the room to keep the carpet from curling, I guess! I had it built 10/y2k and it weighs in at a whopping 67lbs. The heaviest steel I've ever owned.(I have wheels on that case too), in case I decide to move it to another room some day!!! "Big John"

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 21 Aug 2002 10:25 am

Dyke,

That's a really good idea!

Congrats on the newest Corson!!

I recently (June) moved to Little Rock, AR. I am playing some but still looking for the 'right' gig. I have played some neat gigs so far.....

I have always enjoyed you and Crissy's playing --GOOD STUFF!

See you in ST Louis - maybe..

Tim