Which Mic For Recording

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 11 Jan 2012 1:39 pm

Went to my local guitar center and talked with the pro audio guy to try and get some more direction and now I'm even more confused. He actually claimed using a ribbon mic on an amp would be "dangerous" for the mic and sound "horrible" for clean tones since it would add distortion (??), and tried to sell me both a condenser "instrument mic" and an MXL 144 ribbon mic to "add the room noise I must be looking for." He also tried to sell me a "mic interface" for $200 which I think is like a mic pre amp. It has 2 mic inputs and channels with a gain slider and plugs into the computer with a USB cable and runs on phantom power. Not sure if this is good or bad, as I still need a lot of education on these things before I make a purchase. I told him I was not ready to purchase 2 mics and he suggested I just get the instrument mic then, but I walked out of there empty handed since his advice didn't seem to jive with what I've read on here and other forums about recording elec guitar (steel or 6 string) with a ribbon mic alone...

still hoping for some guidance on how to make a ribbon mic work with a home studio including steel on a budget, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm being unrealistic on spending under $300 for a decent rig...is it possible to go from analog to digital (guitar->tube amp->mic->pre-amp->computer software) without spending a fortune or losing all the sound quality I'd be spending money on? What about something like this MBOX Focusrite pre amp ? would that work between a ribbon mic and my PC using audacity?

Might it make more sense to get a used stand-alone/non-pc recording device that has some type of preamp embedded and just skip the computer all together?

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 12 Jan 2012 6:15 am

If a salesman from guitar center told me it is dark at night, I'd still get a second opinion...

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 12 Jan 2012 12:00 pm

John Macy wrote:If a salesman from guitar center told me it is dark at night, I'd still get a second opinion...

Agreed...After doing more research last night, I've come to the conclusion that he was misinformed/inexperienced or was just making suggestions to boost his commission.

My biggest concern right now with adding a mic to my rig is how to get the sound to my PC. My understanding is I need a pre amp and a DAW interface, or something that does BOTH jobs. I could also look into some on-board units that have an XLR input-I think I saw one by M-Aduio, but not sure about price or if they include a pre-amp.

Do most of you who record with a mic to PC use both a mic pre amp and a seperate interface to get to pro tools/audacity, or do you have 1 piece of equipment that does both? If I get an affordable analog mic pre like a preSonus TubePre can I slap a 3.5mm adapter on the end of a instrument cable attached to the output jack and plug it into the input of my sound blaster sound card (PSI), or will that ruin the sound quality? As you can see, I'm desperate for a way to do this without breaking the bank...

Here's some interesting ideas I found after searching for gear on ebay:

Alesis io2
ART TUBE MP project USB

Blue Icicle

M Audio fast track USB

Anyone have any experience with the aforementioned audio equipment or know if any of these would work with a ribbon microphone like a Cascade fathead? Would they work better with an active ribbon mic like the Cascade Vin-Jet since the active ribbon doesn't need as much of a gain boost? Any other suggestions for connecting a ribbon mic to a PC on a budget?

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 12 Jan 2012 12:45 pm

hmmm...just found this on ebay for $70. It's a Alesis 4 track mixer with a USB output. It clearly is a DAW interface, but I don't know if it has an internal pre amp...Would that possibly solve my problems, or do I need a dedicated pre amp? Would it make sense to get this AND something like an old-fashion Rane MS1A microphone preamplifier? They are available on ebay for under $100...

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 17 Jan 2012 12:00 pm

Hot off the bench with the Telefunken transformer mod and the Granelli right angle mod...won't have a chance to use it for a while, but I will let y'all know as soon as it goes into action...also ordered the impedence mod cables that Tommy mentioned above...love messing with gear

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 21 Jan 2012 10:00 am

Tracking drums this morning with the new modded 57 on snare--the right angle mod makes it way easier getting it in place and my first impression is the 57 is waaay smoother in the top and punchier in the mids...liking it a lot!

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 21 Jan 2012 12:35 pm

Gonna have to try it...thanks,John!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Jan 2012 4:01 am

I don't believe GC guys work on any commission. Maybe in all fairness he was confused with what was being asked ? Was the request for a Ribbon mic ?

Using two mics is not actually a bad thing...having a condenser and a ribbon is not a bad idea, but the fact of the matter is , for the purposes here ,any reasonable quality mic will get the job done.

In a scenario such as this a standard 57 or probably any reasonable quality dynamic will fit the bill . I would like to ask why the op wanted to use a Ribbon mic over a dynamic or Condenser . Did someone tell him that he needs a Ribbon mic for his recording goal ?

Signal path mic > Preamp> Interface >DAW

Mic , under $100, Shure 57..$90
Art Preamp under $49
DAW..Reaper $50...

Here is a scaled down pro Tools with an interface for $118, add a mic and you are all set..
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Tools-Music-R ... B002P3KINE

regarding Ribbon mics..here is a note from a recording website..they are fragile and easily damaged...

Recording

Ribbon Microphones have gained a reputation for being fragile and it's true that the ribbons can break or become distorted by wind pressure; even slamming a lid shut on the mic box has been known to wreck a ribbon but this doesn't mean that they can't deal with high SPLs if a sensible pop shield is used and in fact it's good practice to use a pop shield all the time. Added to this they require special handling during use and storage to avoid damage to the ribbon element but the benefits of a good ribbon mic far outweigh any of these difficulties as they can sound stunning on the right recording session. Typically the sound is characterized as smooth and natural with very silky highs, a full bottom-end response at any distance, and high-SPL handling. Low noise and superb transient response are additional benefits, especially when a ribbon is paired with a quality microphone preamp.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 23 Jan 2012 6:53 am

I work with a couple of electric guitar players in the studios sometimes who carry ribbon mics with them to sessions...specifically the Royer R-121...there is one studio I work in where they put that mic on me...it really sounds great!I am thinking about buying one...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Jan 2012 7:19 am

Ah Steve, Royer R-121 , nice mic but that is a $1300 mic ! The op here would like everything inside of $300...

t

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 23 Jan 2012 5:09 pm

Interestingly enough, I had a Royer 121, and then bought a pair of Shiny Box M46 ribbon mics, which are hand tweaked chinese mics by a guy in Seattle. I cut a lot of guitar amps with one of each with some of my favorite tone junkie players around town and let them a/b between the two tracks (same preamps). Most always they picked the Shiny Box as the Royer and vice versa. I traded in the Royer for some other stuff I needed...just saying...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Jan 2012 4:28 am

@ John and Steve...

Is there truth to the Ribbon mics being real fragile, I do not own one but am considering one..

Pro's and cons compared to a Condenser or 57 type Dynamic ? Purpose is clean home recordings which include Acoustics , Mandolins, Dobro's and perhaps Electrics.. Price is also prohibitive... I do understand that all of this is subjective to tone and ears...

t

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 24 Jan 2012 7:22 am

Are folks actually using SM-57s for acoustic instruments??? I guess if that's all you have, but I never could get a tone I could live with using a 57 on acoustic guitar. I had much better luck with just about any of the cheaper (Chinese) condensors.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 25 Jan 2012 5:25 am

Yeah,Tony...I know the Royer is expensive...and I ain't bought one yet...I'd be interested to hear the Shiny Box John was talking about before I buy anything.
John,is it true that a shot of phantom will blow up a ribbon mic?I've heard it both ways...
I have been using a 421 every day...if they don't automatically put one up,I ask for one...loving it!A 57 always sounded great to me,but the 421 seems to sound a little more"hi-fi"...
I still want to hear a 57 with the"Funkenhouse"mod...

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 30 Jan 2012 6:38 pm

Phantom power will not damage a ribbon mic as long as the cable is good...a shorted mic cable can put power across the ribbon and damage it. I have been using ribbon mics with phantom power for years and never had a problem.

My favorite steel mike is also the 421, 'bout all I use for steel...

Ribbon mics are a bit more fragile, and you need to store them upright to avoid ribbon sag. You do need to watch incoming air pressure--I always use a good metal wind screen on horns or vocals. My biggest uses for ribbons are horns, electric guitars and drum room mics, and the occasional vocal...

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 31 Jan 2012 3:11 am

Thanks,John!I have been using a 421 for electric guitar out here too...the guitar players here who like the Royer are all doing the"new country"distorted thing...when I play electric guitar,it's more of a traditional sound...421 seems to work well for that too.One of these days I'm gonna try an 87 on the steel...my favorite mic I've every used for steel is a 67.

Ken Morgan · Post by **Ken Morgan** » 1 Feb 2012 3:32 pm

I get tons of miles out of a set of Cascade Fathead IIs (replaced the transformers with Cinemags).

Ribbons aren't good for kick drums, but aren't babies either - I use them as overheads, and on steel amps frequently. Great ones are expensive, decent ones can be had for $200 or so..

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 7 Feb 2012 6:29 pm

I love the Studio Projects C1 for vocals and instruments but I've never tried it on steel.

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 10 Feb 2012 12:02 pm

I decided on the Apex 205. Compact ribbon mic and also got an m-audio dmp3 preamp and an m audio interface to complete my setup. I'm very happy with the apex 205 on steel al elec guitar. For under $100 it's a no-brainer for anoyone looking tplo explore the world of ribbons. The tone and sound quality are great and really fit well with steel guitar imho. The only trouble is I've yet to figure out jow to get a strong enough signal to record acoustic guitar. Even with 67dbs of gain the dmp3 must be crankedall the way up to pick up finger picking on the acoustic so I don't have any headroom to work dynamically. I'll be experimenting with mic placement and tbe toggles on the preamp or even DAW effects if nrcessary to increase the volume but it's also possible I will fi d it necessary to make some simple mods to the mic to increase output like removing some of the padding around the ribbon motor. I'll also be checking the ribbon tension visually as I know QC is not great with theae Chinese models but for amplified instruments this is a great option!

Cass Broadview · Post by **Cass Broadview** » 17 Feb 2012 7:48 pm

I want to thank Justin Douglas for suggesting the KEL HM-3C, it's just fantastic. Kel Microphones suggested this microphone for acoustic instrument recording such as my violin, cello, viola. I was using a Shure SM57. I haven't picked up the shure since getting the Kel. I was worried about the low mid's of my viola, and lower notes of my cello. But was i surprised. The difference between this mic and the SM57 was night & day. I would suggest it for you guys who play dobro. Hope i contributed. Cass

My Preamplifier is a Avalon VT-737SP. Which was suggested by forum member George Redmon.

http://www.avalondesign.com/vt737sp.html

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 17 Feb 2012 8:01 pm

Wanted to give an update, as I've now changed DAWs (audacity to FL Studio) and the Apex 205 ribbon mic is sounding superb for everything I put in front of it, even acoustics! Extremely satisfied with this inexpensive mic right out of the box! The character of the sound when paired with steel guitar is incredible. Its very easy to place and needs little to no EQing to reproduce a true warm full sound. Loving this mic!

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 19 Feb 2012 12:49 pm

Cutting out the padding will open up the top end, but also remember to use a windscreen for anything that moves a lot of air as the padding was there to protect the ribbon. Also, upgrading the transformer will really help smooth out the mic, is easy to do and adds a little gain. There are some great choices from Cinemag, Lundahl and Tab-Telefunken ranging from 100-150 bucks. Also store your mic in the vertical position to avoid ribbon sag...

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 19 Feb 2012 2:59 pm

What John said. Ribbon mics are easily damaged by volume.

Terry Miller · Post by **Terry Miller** » 2 Mar 2012 9:27 pm

I have been using an AT 2020 condenser and a Senhieser 609 works grat for me. Terry

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 2 Mar 2012 10:05 pm

Used to rely on various versions of AKG 414 for recording and/or broadcasting whatever. A bit pricey, but always good results.