Zoom R16...now part of the fam...my review...

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Tony Prior
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Zoom R16...now part of the fam...my review...

Post by Tony Prior »

After much deliberation I decided to purchase a Zoom R16, which is a 16 track recorder, interface and controller.

Purpose is everything... I use Sonar on the PC but don't want to drag the PC around to record, live or demo's, obviously.

Primary purpose..

To get outboard individually recorded song tracks into a format that is compatible with ANY DAW. Such as 5 drum tracks. Well that's easy as pie, record, save,then USB them over to the PC or directly into Sonar as wave files ! Each R16 song is a project file and inside that project are the individual wav files, take one or take em' all, man that was easy.

I have been looking at new workstations for over a year now, considering my Yamaha AW2816 is still fine performing unit, but it has no PC connectivity, it can save two wav files at a time ( stereo or mono) to a CD..so transferring takes a long time if I am doing more than two tracks..out goes the old, in comes the new. I labored over which unit to drag home but the primary feature was indvidual wav files within a song, of which the R16 and the new R24 offer as the standard feature set.

Ok now, on it's own, 8 inputs, 16 track recording, ( records 8 at a time ) 2 phantom power in's , HI Z in, 3 effects per channel, in, out or off...all the typical stuff, EQ's, pan, bounce , track swap, tuner ,metronome, 16 bit,24 bit...individual track level meters rather than small and can't see em on the LCD display.

Considering I have only fooled with it for about an hour, it's fairly easy to use, but you need to be somewhat intuitive and previous recording/workstation experience will really help in getting things sorted out. I recorded a few short tracks , swapped tracks( that's how you overdub) added a few effects then transferred the files to the PC. A Jog wheel , 4 position pointer buttons, enter button and exit button are the command points. I think they can be a bit strange in the menu's but once the routine is understood it's fairly simple. Considering my Yamaha AW2816 has a half million buttons( exaggeration) this is really no different, but certainly less inherent features.

This morning I also registered on the ZOOM forum and that is a library of info from fanatics ! Well worth reading that forum.

What else,? Portable, runs on batteries or AC power,two on board mics, SD card, no more hard drive ( thank god ) up to 32 gig SD card...and the price...
I paid $331 new , found it on the net and then went local and they matched the price.

What else ? Small, very light, now the R16 product is a year old and has whatever updates from the initial release..Users rave about it so it must be doing well. It's a small lite weight plastic case so don't drop it !

I had considered at least half a dozen different workstations to use along with Sonar , this one just seemed to be the exact right one...Price was not really the issue, the file structure was...after that everything else just fell in line. And yes, it can mix and master a total song, it is after all a standalone 16 track workstation and much more.

Oh yeh, it has those input connectors that take mics or 1/4 phono plugs, that's also big.

It also serves as a PC 16 channel DAW Interface / Controller compatible with pretty much all DAW platforms, I guess, so they say...

Why the R16 rather than the new R24 for $100 more ? The R24 is basically the same unit, same architecture, same effects, but it does have 24 record tracks,( 8 at a time ) 6 Phantom Power in's and it has on board drum loops and pads. I don't need or want any more drums, 16 tracks will serve me quite well and I don't really need more than 2 phantom power in's, if I need more I'll use preamps.

More at some other time..nice unit ,I can see it has long term value, maybe even take it to a gig and use 4 mics..or 6 ..or 8 ...or NONE ! ( two on board condensers)

Down Side..
The only thing I can come up with right now is that it only comes with a 1 gig SD card. I think 8 or more is probably required for full 16 track projects.


t


Image
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Last edited by Tony Prior on 14 Nov 2010 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

and here is the meat of what I was seeking..probably all PC based DAW users seek this at one time or another .

Here it is connected to the PC in the card reader mode (USB) showing the project folder then the files inside the folder..

Image

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and here, after creating a new Sonar Project and importing 4 files at one time...this is BIG TIME ! all four files obviously start at the exact same time and are imported exactly correct.

This is where you can take any wav file from perhaps another player ( net session ) and drop it into the project, even if it doesn't line up initially exactly you can line it up..no issue.

When I do E Sessions I record my takes as wav files then return them to the client in the same format. I can now do that either on the PC or right on board the R16, just drop the client wave project onto the R16, play in tune...return the track and then send the invoice !

OR

Dump the Sonar project ( any other DAW) in wav format onto the R16, take it to another player or singers house, record a few tracks then put it all back into Sonar when I get home...seems too easy !

Image

Say goodbye to the 90's and probably even the 2000's !
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Charlie Thompson
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Post by Charlie Thompson »

I just bought one of these a few weeks ago and love it! So easy to record the band live. You'll want some xlr splitters so you can split your mic feeds to the PA. You'll also want a bigger SD card.
The thing that got me was it was it looked like nothing recorded but you have to assign tracks to channels for playback...no big deal..If I read the manual I would have known!
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Clete Ritta
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Post by Clete Ritta »

Tony,
I bought an R16 recently and really love it!
I got a 32G card for it, so it is maxed for recording time.
The onboard effects are nice and there are loads of features for the money.

Clete
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Post by jolynyk »

I haven't tried the Zoom, but I found this review on another forum..



Jim Lad
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Re: Ok, now that the D3200 is offically done, what's next?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read the stats on the Zoom R 16 when it first came out.
According to the specs, you can connect two of them together but according to the reviews, it's Mickey Mouse.
The D3200 is way ahead of the Zoom, I know but if anything happened to the Korg, I'd probably get the Zoom.
Their earlier models were excellent too but only 16 bit.
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

I don't think it is meant to be compared to a D3200.Actually I know it's not !

It has a specific purpose, it's under $400, the D3200 is under $1500 ! Interface, Control surface and recorder all in one , and the recorder is pretty savvy ! Not near as many operating system features as a high end workstation, it's not advertised or intended to be the same. Even comparing it feature to feature to my Yamaha AW2816 it falls real short, but it should. It's not Mickey Mouse, it is in a different category.

Imagine a PC software DAW with 24 or 30 tracks, now think TWO R16's together as a control surface... And it is a fine performing and functioning true 16 track recorder, with a nice overall feature set...limitations ? sure, but functional, nothing missing to complete an entire project, start to finish.

t
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

put it to the test, used it to record 7 tracks at a time on sat, 4 drum tracks( 2 phantom),bass, scratch vocal and scratch guitar.. this was a band demo session...

Let me just say this,this not Mickey Mouse,this is a great unit, easy to use, excellent 24 bit wav recording quality, recorded with effects in the cans, transferred files to Sonar in seconds, backed up files in seconds. Having each tracks with it's own tri m and DB meter without using the display is big time.We even used the on board metronome in the cans for a click track.

Under $400 for a 16 track unit with 16 true mono ,full connectivity and file transfer is big time..

Like many here, I have been using workstations and recorders for decades, this one, although it does not have the SYSTEM feature set or architecture that large scale workstations have, but for what it offers it is the best.

Size
portable or AC
3 effects per track
8 track record
16 true tracks
individual DB level LED meters per track
punch in
markers etc...
single wav file per track
transfer all at once or grab just one
mastering track
mastering effects
DAW connectivity
easy to use
audio DAW interface
DAW controller
this is NEW school
Yamaha AW2816 is for sale
already sold one of my Boss 4 tracks !

Having used a premier Yamaha 16 tracker over the past several years there has been maybe a handful of times I may have needed more features than what this unit offers...and I can't even think of any right now...

Stand alone or with a DAW, this unit is a bargan in my view...the great thing about it for me is that IT DOES NOT RECORD IN A PROPRIETARY FORMAT .All files and songs can be loaded and or used in ANY recorder or DAW platform or on any PC. It's about friggin' time !

Take all your song files, load them into your DAW ,all at the same time, even the free ones, mix,master and burn to CD
on the PC...it's that easy...

And, no more hard drive ! I did yesterday's session with a 4 gig card, I transferred each song project to Sonar after tracking ( 3 takes each song ) and then saved them to another PC as well...that took all of 2 or 3 min... I'm not sure there is a reason for a 32 gig SD card other than LIVE multitrack recording where you can't transfer / backup as you go...each 7 track song used approx 120 meg of SD space. We did 4 songs so that's around 500 meg on the 4 gig card.

I guess I'm saying,maybe the days of the big expensive units that use hard drives is nearing end of life !

here ya go, 4 ,seven track songs with separate files
right here..

Image

and here it is in action

Image
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Bob Martin
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Post by Bob Martin »

Hey Toni, I've had my eye on this little monster since I first read about it! It seems you and I have a lot of the same tastes in digital recorders many times here in this forum area we have agreed on what recorders we like LOL!!!

I hope to soon make some deals that will allow me to invest in one of these units. I have listened to demos of recordings made on this unit and I was most impressed. I have seen a few and I mean very few areas of this unit that I wasn't crazy about but the more I looked at it and checked out the good and the bad points about it I am pretty sure the good out weighs the bad!

The sound quality seems impeccable and the ease of use is top notch! I especially love the fact that it can be used as a control surface for Sonar and that it can do more than most surface controllers for Sonar ever thought about.

Well anyway if I can wrangle a way to get this little dandy I will soon have one and I will be much more able to discuss the in's and out's of this cool recorder!! Toni please keep us up on anything you find out about this sweet unit!!!

Big Bob
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Hey Bob, agreed..all points..! I think the overall sound quality is pretty darn good for a $300 plus piece of plastic. It is 16/24 bit wav so one would assume that this has to be consistent with other brands/manufacturers.

I think the issue is more front end related and that was my concern from the get go, how good can the input preamps be for a low dollar item ? Well.I guess pretty good ! The unit does not have virtual tracks and such and many of the system features that higher end workstations have but to me that's all bells and window dressing anyway, I have never used virtual tracks on any of the recorders I own or have owned. They have eliminated many of the system features of higher cost units and got it down to a nice 16 track unit which is very functional , it does have a good feature set but it should never be compared to a dedicated hi end workstation that sells in the plus $1000 range. Generally those units have a operating system with a feature set that allows extended capabilities on top of being a recorder. Most of which nobody will ever use or learn how to use.

Ok, I did try to connect as a Sonar controller and although I didn't spend much time I didn't have any success. Sonar recognizes that the R16 is present but no control. The instructions are really limited but I suppose once I go back and actually spend a few minutes it will get sorted out. Overall I can't say enough good stuff about the tracking we did, ( not the music ) sure maybe it's not like a premium quality bd but it did exactly what we needed, better than expected and that's what I was needing.

My band mate was so impressed he bought one this week ! So now he is on Sonar a with an R16 as well and we work on our tracks in two locations using the exact same data.

The other good news for me is that this week I did sell a small Boss 4 track and my Yamaha 16 track unit so I ended up a bit positive on the cash flow side of things ! Life is good ! , well at least this week...
t
Last edited by Tony Prior on 4 Dec 2010 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Clete Ritta
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Post by Clete Ritta »

In comparing the Zoom H2 vs the R16 (channel 7/8 ) using built in mics, I think the H2 is a bit better, but only from a binaural perspective. That is, The R16 mics are on a horizontal plane, whereas the H2 has a more realistic binaural XY axis angle of the mics, which produce a more focused stereo field.
Good thing is the R16 has 2 channels of phantom power on 5 and 6!

I was noodling around on my Tele Custom recently, and decided to record into the R16 acoustically onto channels 7 and 8 using the internal mics. That is, just playing unplugged very close to the unit. When I transferred the files to Logic and treated them as a DI signal, I was pleasantly surprised at the results. Almost like a stereo pickup or AB drum overhead mic. Because the unit was very close when recording, the left signal on 7 was more focused on finger fretting and neck sound, and the right signal on 8 more focused on the bridge, body and pick sounds. This is one aspect of the horizontal mic placement on the R16 that really shines...close proximity in stereo.

For ambient room recording, the XY setup as on the H2 may work better than the R16, though with a couple of phantom powered XY overheads into channels 5 and 6, the R16 is spot on!

Clete
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

I think the thing about it is that the R16 mics are there as an added feature, probably because other workstations have small on board mics, while the H2 is about field recording, that is it's purpose in life.It better have better mics ! I also have an H2 , wouldn't be without one. I have 3 field recorders, the H2 is hands down the best, especially at $135. I use it for literally everything, band gigs, sales meetings , seminars..

t
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Greg Cutshaw
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Post by Greg Cutshaw »

Tony,

On my Yamaha AW-2400 I had to use external mic preamps because the Yamaha premaps were extremely noisy at low levels. With the R16 would I be able to plug my Shure SM-57 directly into the unit and get a hiss free recording?

Greg
Last edited by Greg Cutshaw on 26 Nov 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Clete Ritta
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Post by Clete Ritta »

Greg,
If by low level you mean the trim set very high, hiss is inevitable. Low level recording is going to involve background ambience (hiss) no matter what mic or preamp is used, though better quality preamps and mics will definitely yield better results as you've found.

Although the R16 preamps are not great, they are certainly good for home, demo and most live recording. The key is proximity of the mic to the source to control your signal to noise ratio as high as possible, so that gating and/or noise reduction after results in a useable track. Im not familiar with the Yamaha, but you'll probably find the R-16 preamps are no better than the Yamaha when recording low level.

Clete
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Greg Cutshaw
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Post by Greg Cutshaw »

Clete,

I am pretty used to real world recording where you crank the amp/instrument levels up high enough so that the signal to noise ratio overcomes amp hum and ambient noise.

The Yamaha pre amps on my AW1600/2400 were just totally unusable without external preamps. The Yamaha pre amps were noisy at any setting beyond about 1:00. I'm looking at buying the R24 and I guess I will and just go with some preamps if needed.

I was using the Yamaha cheapo MG10 mixer ($99.00) as a pre amp and it was infinitely quieter than the AW2400/1600 with the SM57. I would crank up the MG10 and crank down the Aw2400 input preamp levels to 10:00 and with decent amps levels, get a pristine recording.

Greg
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Clete Ritta
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Post by Clete Ritta »

Greg,
Just listened to Theres Just Something About That Name in streaming mp3 format
A nice clear sound and great playing!
(I thought I could hear a mild buzz in the 6 string track occasionally, but hardly noticeable, most likely an edit or gate not closed).

Anyway, I hope you are pleasantly surprised by the R24 quality for my sake as well, compared to the Yamaha :P
As you are an electrical engineer, you know far more about this stuff than I do. Keep us posted how the R24 compares. :D
And thanks for sharing your knowledge with a noober on all things pedal steel.

Clete
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Greg, I too found my Yamaha AW preamps to be a tad off kilter..I used an ART MP 12AX7 preamp all the time ..it was better but not the cats meow. But for my projects it was fine. Now, this last go around we plugged 7 mics directly into the R16, recorded 7 tracks at a time, no preamps, two were overhead condensers, a few 58's some sort of a kick mic, the Bass direct and I gotta say, we didn't find anything offensive, nothing that we heard made us cringe, no excessive noise etc, I did keep the levels as high as possible though for the best s/n. I am guessing the preamps are general average quality , I doubt they can be great , the whole unit was only $335 ! The thing about the R16 and the R24 is nice quality and the ease of use along with real easy file transfer, to and from...and NO HARD DRIVE ! it doesn't have a lot of flash, bells and whistles, it's fairly generic for a workstation with effects, but it does what it is supposed to and very well.

t
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Greg Cutshaw
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Post by Greg Cutshaw »

Clete, thanks for the nice comments!

Tony, thanks for all the info. I understand that both the R16 and R24 can have as many tracks as you want by saving tracks as files. The extra files can be alternate takes, or just extra tracks. As such the R24 just gives you the advantage of playing back 24 tracks at one time. I intend to get the R24 and do all my drums tracks in EZDrummer and all the final mixing in Reaper.

I found this preamp here:


Studio Projects Preamp


Read the reviews. It appears to be an extremely quiet solid state preamp with a variable tube mix control. This would give me lower noise recordings that I was getting with my AW1600/2400 setups! Maybe this would be a great steel preamp too at a very low cost.

Greg
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Greg, I think with your experience and knowledge you will find excellent value for the R16 or R24.


Yes the file thing, you can transfer files into a PC platform or to another Zoom project, and start again..or continue..as long as you have a primary track available for timing then all is good.I guess there is no limitation..and yes you are correct, the R24 can record/play back 24 while the R16 is limited to 16...either way, lots of tracks, lots of files ! I think using the combination of a PC platfrom and the R16/24 the limitation is our brain !

Remember though, the Zoom has a qwerky way of naming files and placing them in the correct Project>Audio folders or they may not be recognized if you move files back and fourth.This is easy stuff though.

I doubt I will ever exceed 8 or so on the R16.., we record then I dump everything into Sonar, if we need to go out board again I move the tracks back to the Zoom ! My bandmate has the exact same setup as I do now and we are finishing a band demo between our two homes , now and then we send a track or two back and fourth by USENDIT.com...Once we had the initial live drum tracks done it has made the rest of the process real easy. All we have to do now is actually play good and in tune as we track..but thats another issue...I don't think the Zoom as a button to fix that !

Thanks for the link on the preamp, if you get one let us know what you think
t
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Charlie Thompson
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Post by Charlie Thompson »

Hi Tony This is a great little box - especialy at the price point.
Do you know a way to drag all 8 tracks into Sonar simultaneously? I have been importing each track individually into each track in Sonar one at a time.
Thanks Charlie
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Charlie yes it's real easy... Once you have all the tracks on your PC ( which you should always do ) the R16 tracks are in the AUDIO folder under the Project folder....all of them, move( copy) them into a folder on your PC...

From Sonar, > import> go to that folder where the tracks are> highlight all the tracks > ...they will fill into Sonar automatically.

easy as pie

t
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Post by Charlie Thompson »

Cool..Thanks Tony..
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Richard Durrer
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Post by Richard Durrer »

I just rented the Zoom R16 for a month to try it out and see how it works before I pulled the trigger. I am considering a Presonus Firestudio Mobile (Firewire) (2 mic pre-amps) or the Zoom R16 (USB 2.0). I now have it working with REAPER as a workable control surface. The faders and Rec Arm, Mute , etc all work from the Zoom and activate the appropriate tracks in Reaper. Seems great and gives me a lot of flexibility. I will be doing some recording in the next few days to see how that turns out. In the past I was using a larger 6 pre-amp Behringer board recording 1 track at a time into Reaper or Audacity. Worked well, but I did not care for the Behringer pre-amps. Preliminary results show that the Zoom has better pres.
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Thanks for that Richard, I have not used my R16 as a control surface yet but perhaps will soon. The value for me is that it is a true 8 at a time/16 track recorder (actually more if you store and rename the files) then dump the individual files into a DAW . The track files as I stated earlier are individual wav files and can be accessed or exported to any DAW one at a time or all at once directly into a DAW session.


I was speaking to a friend yesterday who runs Sonar with a 10 input PCI card in his small home studio, after discussing the R16 with him I think he ran out and bought one . The notion of using the R16/R24 for live multi tracking ( all at once ) then importing all of those files into a DAW session as individual files is just too big of an asset. At this price point these little units really fill a big void and eliminate the need for extended inputs on the DAW.

I'm sure the R16 preamps and such are not the industries best but for a small home studio they are not offensive, in fact quite the opposite, the are pretty darn good !

I have been reading on the Pro Tools forums with regard to using the R16 as a control surface, maybe I'll give it a shot...


t
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Richard Durrer
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Post by Richard Durrer »

Here is an update on my experience with the Zoom R16. Suffice it to say I have had a lot of fun with the R16. I did manage to get it to work as a control surface with Reaper and Cubase Le4. However, that was only a few times. It seems to be a hit and miss thing. I did do some recording. I bought a Karaoke Custom track online for $ 2.99. (Brad Paisley's Water). It allows me to download unlimited times building tracks in any combination. There are approx 15 tracks in the song. So, I mixed and downloaded Bass, Drums, Violin, and the rest of the song (minus Steel) and loaded them into the R16 as separate tracks. Then I attempted to record the steel track out of N112 with my SM57 . Here is where I ran into trouble. I could not get a decent gain out of the onboard Pre-amp of the R16. Each attempt either gave me too little a gain, or else it was giving me distortion. So, I then ran my SM57 into my Behringer Tube Pre-amp ( about $40.00) and tried again. Today, it proved successful. I now run the R16 with my steel track gain button at about a 1:00 o'clock setting. So, I now have a somewhat decent mix. The issue for me now is to decide if the Pre-amp is a deal breaker. Since I was able to rent the R16 for a month, I now have the option to buy the unit, or spend my money on a higher quality two mic input USB Pre-amp. I am still searching for a suitable recorded tone that matches what I hear from my amp. Any comments on the SM57 issue would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long winded version here.
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Rick Schacter
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Post by Rick Schacter »

This might be a dumb question, but can you connect the inputs of this thing to sub outs on a mixer or will it overdrive the inputs of the R16?

Rick